How To Talk About Imposter Syndrome Without Talking About Imposter Syndrome [Episode 61]

Hello, and welcome to episode 61 of the Ditching Impostor Syndrome podcast with me, your host, Clare Josa. And today we're talking about how to talk about imposter syndrome without talking about imposter syndrome. Now, this is a question that was sent to me by somebody who is a member of the Imposter syndrome hacks App Courage Club. This person was saying that they have a team member who's running imposter syndrome. They're pretty sure they are.

They want to raise the conversation with them, but they're really scared that if they use the words impostor and syndrome together, they're going to get a really negative response. So what can you do? What can we do instead? How can you raise the topic? How can you remove the taboo?

All of that and more is what's waiting for you in today's episode. So I get asked this question a lot, and you wouldn't believe how much taboo there is out there around imposter syndrome. We think it's everywhere. We think that every celebrity and their niece, nephew, uncle, aunt, and granny is running it and talking about it. And yet, when it comes to raising it with a loved one or a colleague or a client or a member of our teams, we absolutely bottle it.

We are terrified that they are going to react badly to us sharing the phrase with them. This happens much more often if you yourself are secretly running impostor syndrome, because what happens is, you know, the shame that you feel, the embarrassment, even guilt, and the effort that you make to hide this and suppress it. So the idea of confronting somebody else, accusing them of also running imposter syndrome, triggers your own fears, too. So what we're going to cover in this episode is a bit about why that baggage is there, how you can raise the conversation, how to remove the taboo, and what you can use instead of saying the words imposter syndrome, if you're genuinely sure that they're going to cause a problem, meaning you can still help the person anyway. So the term imposter syndrome, where did it come from?

The original research from 1978 by Clarence and Eames actually coined the phrase the imposter phenomenon. Now, somehow, over the intervening decades, it's become a syndrome instead of a phenomenon. It's not actually a diagnosable syndrome. Some people really get their knickers in a twist over that and say that it shouldn't be called a syndrome. But you know what?

Almost everything's called a syndrome these days. And as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather put my energy into helping people to set themselves free from this horrible bunch of icky feelings than worry about what it's called. But some people really don't like the term, and that's a okay, I've got an episode of the Ditching Imposter Syndrome podcast for you on this episode 39, imposter syndrome. Time to rename it or reclaim it. So if you want to find out more about the name and some of the baggage around it right now from the last few months, the last couple of years, that's episode 39 in this podcast.

So if you mention the word imposter syndrome to someone you care about, it might well bring relief. It might be a huge relief for them to feel seen, to realise they're not alone. Simply being able to give a name to how they're feeling and how they're experiencing life can be the first step towards freedom. But they might also have the baggage. They might have been judging themselves for running imposter syndrome, and it might actually turn them off.

I want to share with you how you can raise the conversation, remove the taboo, and help them. Whether you call it imposter syndrome or sky blue pink feelings, it doesn't matter. What matters is you've got access to the tools to be able to empower them to set themselves free from this. So I talk about this a lot in my new book, coaching imposter syndrome. I'm currently at the time of recording this episode, still giving away free copies.

So if you want one of them, go to coachingimpostersyndrome.com. it is for line managers, HR professionals, mental health first aiders, coaches, and consultants who know that imposter syndrome is the elephant in the room in your one to one meetings. And when we're looking at the section in the book on how to raise the conversation, there is a four word question that is guaranteed to strike fear into the heart of anyone running imposter syndrome. Yet it is the single most common way most managers will ask them to have the chat. So, Drumroll.

Want to know what it is? Can I have a word? Okay. Want to make this even worse? Can I have a word of later?

So what we think we're saying is, hey, there's something important I'd like to talk to you about. But it's a good thing. And don't worry what the other person hears. If they're running imposter syndrome, you've really screwed up and I might fire you. So we need to talk, and you're going to wish you had taken the day off sick today.

Now, if we overlay our own inattention, nervousness and anxiety about having the imposter syndrome chat, which quickly becomes a thing. We're going to be giving off those worry vibes, and the other person's likely to pick them up without realising it amplifies their fear, their worry, their catastrophizing, and their what if ing. Their internal sign track between now and the chat is going to be pretty horrible. So what can you do instead? Well, firstly, you really need to get out of your own way.

This one is tough, especially if you're also experiencing imposter syndrome, because you are likely to be projecting onto the other person how you would feel if this were raised with you. So maybe the other person would be totally fine about having the imposter syndrome chat, but the issue is that we wouldn't, and so we actually project our own inattention and nervousness onto the situation. So getting out of your own way is so important. If you are feeling nervous or scared about how they might react, this can put the other person on the defensive. They might be stuck looking out for threats if they're running imposter syndrome.

We've talked in previous podcast episodes about hypervigilance. I'm actually going to be doing a full episode on hypervigilance quite soon, so do make sure you've subscribed wherever you love to get your podcast to make sure you catch that. And then when we're talking about having the chat, if at all possible, I would always recommend having it in in person, face to face, in a private meeting room, ideally not even at the office. Okay. Because one of the things that can happen when you talk to someone about imposter syndrome, if they've been pushing on through the sphere for a very long time, is the waterworks can turn on.

They might cry. Yeah, doing that at work is never a good look, and it's really likely to mean that they avoid you for the rest of the time on a one to one basis. Doing it over a Zoom or teams call is the next best option. But again, be aware that you don't get an awful lot of information about the person other than what's happening with their face and their shoulders, so you might not be able to spot the usual cues for yay. They are happy to go full steam ahead with this or no, they've started fidgeting their left foot and they'd actually really rather run.

If you're going to have it online by teams, Zoom, whatever, please make sure it's video on so that you can see how the other person is responding to the conversation and make sure you keep it psychologically safe. So impostor syndrome is a delicate subject. Your gut and the warning signs might be telling you that someone's running it, but they are unlikely to be waving a public banner celebrating the fact. So how do you raise it with them without offending them or having them refuse to ever talk to you again? First key is you need to let go of any attachment you might have to them agreeing with you that they're running impostor syndrome, even if it is so obvious it's almost tattooed on their eyelids.

Yeah. You want to talk about their behaviours. So, for example, instead of can I have a word? Or we need to talk something like, I noticed XYz physical behaviours. Yeah.

Which might mean that the potential feeling they're experiencing. And I've got some suggestions I think might really help you. Would you be up for a chat about it? I'd really like to support you. So let's break this down a bit.

There are some important components in this set of questions. So, firstly, you're talking about behaviours that you've observed. You're not making identity statements. It is the difference between. Oh, you weren't great in that presentation, were you?

And I. I noticed when you asked if the audience had questions, you shuffled from 1ft to the other and bit your lip, which might mean you were feeling uncomfortable. Can you see how one of them is much more safe and comforting than the other? But also by going back to behaviours, what you're doing is making sure you don't accidentally trigger the self judgement that comes with identity level feedback. The second important point here is you are not mind reading emotions and you're giving them permission to tell them that you are wrong.

So you are describing physically observable reactions and then asking them a question about how they might feel. You're saying that you have suggestions, which is then the focus of the conversation, which might well bring them some hope and some relief. And you are asking permission. I have this route on a regular basis with post middle aged white men on social media who think that you do not need consent to give feedback and that their role as a manager becomes invalidated if they can't go around telling everybody what they think. In fact, I am so frustrated at this, I did podcast.

Episode 58 in ditching Imposter syndrome is all about radical candour and the risks of giving unsolicited feedback and direct feedback. If someone's running imposter syndrome, that's episode 58 go and have a listen to that one. I'll put a link to it in the show notes. Asking permission really is essential because we don't know what's going on for that other person. We don't know what happened for them last night, last week, last month.

We do not know whether they're feeling psychologically safe and ready right now to have a discussion about improving their performance. When you've got that micro permission, you're much more likely to have a successful and safe and effective conversation. Fifth point in this statement is you're offering support. You are not telling them off. Obviously.

Pick wording that fits how you communicate, and you might even want to write it down and practise saying it a few times so that you can move away from the hey, have you got a minute? Could we just have a chat? And it's really important at this point to make it about them and not about you. This is the point in the conversation where particularly big hearted line managers can want to overshare and talk about their own experience in order to build rapport. And that has its place and it has value.

But this is about the other person and their experience. So make sure that you're asking open ended questions. So, for example, in this morning's meeting, I noticed that you seemed to flinch when Fred asked you a question. Then you didn't share the idea that you told me about in our last one to one, I've done that kind of thing too. Would it help you for us to talk about what was happening for you?

I've got some suggestions and I'd love to help, but only if you'd like me to. Yeah. So this is giving them direct feedback. It's letting them know, hey, there's something I think we should discuss, but there is no judgement here. This is a safe space, and if you don't have a specific recent example to share with someone, then use me as an excuse.

It's like, hey, I was reading this book lately by this woman called Clare Josa Ditching Imposter syndrome, or I was listening to this podcast ditching imposter syndrome by Clare Josa, and it's this thing where you worry that you're going to be found out as not good enough. And I know I felt that way in the past. I was wondering if you might have been experiencing too. If you have, I'm here and I'd really love to help. And then you need to shut up, okay?

Both your mouth and your mind and listen to hear instead of listening to reply, making sure you are not viewing it through the philtre of your own experience, but you are using your sensory acuity to be able to see, feel, hear what is really happening for that person. But how do you talk about imposter syndrome without talking about imposter syndrome? That might be because the person is adamant that they're not running it. Or it might be that they're actually in complete denial, even when it seems blindingly obvious to you. As soon as you mention imposter syndrome, some people will immediately show recognition and relief.

They might have been researching it, they might be sensing that's what's getting in their way, but others will look at you blankly and some might even be hostile to the label. And all of these are completely normal and acceptable reactions. You've not done anything wrong. The key is to let go of any attachment you might have to them. Agreeing with your air quotes here.

Diagnosis. Okay, so as a coach, a line manager, HR professional, concerned friend or colleague, what can you do to help them reach the point of understanding that how they're feeling has a name and that there's something that they can do about it? How can you support or coach someone who's showing the signs of imposter syndrome, but who won't acknowledge that's what's going on for them? Well, firstly, you can ditch the label, talk about the feelings instead. So when we name something, it's always a shorthand?

Yeah, it's like a code. So recently, for example, I broke my wrist and that has a shortcode in our health system here in the UK of broken wrist. What's actually happening inside the wrist is a couple of fractures and a bit of something torn. And there's a reason I studied engineering and not medicine, so I'm not going any further into that. There's a whole complex web of words that I'd never even heard of until I had to put the splints on.

But it's called broken wrist. It's a shorthand. Similarly, imposter syndrome is a shorthand for a myriad of feelings, self sabotage, anxiety and coping strategies that come from that secret fear of being found out as somehow not good enough or a fraud. Forget the label, let it go. Talk about the rest of it.

Instead, talk about the behaviours that you observed. Ask what was going on for the person and ask if they like your support and your help because you think that there are things that you can do to make a difference. I've got people who've completed my imposter syndrome master coach programme, who have finished entire coaching cycles with clients without ever mentioning the word impostor syndrome, yet having helped the client to set themselves free from it. The shorthand is useful because it means that we can use two words instead of 20, but when we let go of our attachment to the name and the label, it sets us free just to be there and have those conversations and make that difference without needing to beat somebody over their head with a stick until they agree with us. Another thing that you can do is you can get them to take my scorecard.

So that is a research backed quiz style assessment that gives them their imposter syndrome risk score and a personalised action plan. So something like that can then form a basis for discussion, and it's somebody else that is then suggesting whether or not it might be imposter syndrome running for them. Another really useful option is inside the imposter syndrome hacks app absolutely free of charge. There's a course I've created called imposter syndrome 101. It helps people to understand what it is, what it isn't.

It specifically looks at things like the difference between imposter syndrome and self doubt and other stuff, and it starts to give people insights into how they might have been running it and what they can do to set themselves free from it. The paid version of the app for Courage club members then gives them step by step how to. But even the free version, the imposter syndrome 101 course, is really worth them going through to gain more understanding of what's happening for them inside. And I'm actually going to be doing a whole podcast episode for the book launch mini series in a couple of weeks time. So do make sure you have subscribed to this podcast wherever you love to get your podcast that that definitely shows up in your feed and in your podcast library.

The key here is not banging that person over the head until they agree with you on the label. It's about helping them to understand that this is real for them, that they're not alone in feeling this way. They are not broken. There is nothing to fix. There are things they can do to clear this out so they can truly set themselves free from it.

Shrinking their stress levels, cranking up their confidence, sharing their ideas with courage, confidence and passion. So that wraps up what I wanted to say today on how to talk about imposter syndrome without talking about imposter syndrome. And I really hope that's given you some inspiration and some ideas. There are a load of resources that I mentioned. They're waiting for you in the show notes.

And above all, if you really want to be able to help people with this, please remember it's specialised work. Listening to this podcast, reading a book, asking Google is not going to give you the skills that you need and that you deserve to be able to deeply clear your own imposter syndrome and to be able to support other people to do the same. If you want to work with me to train and get certified in this work, it's really fun, it's high impact. You will be the future. You would do a massive happy dance.

Find out how to join us for the next cohort of the certification programmes at ditchingimpostersyndrome.com/train and work direct with me on this to develop the skills that you need and to clear out your own imposter syndrome fast so that you can feel confident and courageous in helping others to do the same. I will be back next time where we're going to be looking at the hidden warning signs of imposter syndrome in a working environment. And as I said, make sure you're supporting subscribe because I've got a mini series coming up on the imposter syndrome coaching models that I've created and that I teach and that is going to be one episode a day for seven days to celebrate the launch of coaching imposter syndrome. My new book, I'm gifting you all of this.

Go to coachingimpostersyndrome.com. sign up there and also make sure you subscribe to the podcast. And if you found it useful today, maybe leave us a review. Let other people know. What did you find helpful today?

Help us spread a wave of hope around the world. I hope you have a fantastic week.